A friend's post has generated a heated discussion with anti-gay Ugandans
A young Ugandan woman's comments, Prossie,
are representative of their homophobic, anti-gay way of thinking.
Set that argument aside and consider what Jesus said in Matthew 19:11-12 concerning those who are born intersex or eunuchs. Your binary notion that humans are only male or female is flawed. Some are born with primary and secondary sexual characteristics that are ambiguous. Some might be more male than female and some may be more female than male.
If you had a baby that was born neither male nor female, what would you do with your baby, kill it or let it die? If you nursed and raised the baby, what gender would you assign this child? Would you raise it as a girl, or would you raise it as a boy? Let's say you raised it as a boy and when he turned twelve years old he came to you and said, mommy, I think I am a girl and I am attracted to boys. Would you call him gay? You see, human sexuality is complex.
There are three layers to consider. The first is gender identity. That is how you identify; let's say that it is the brain part. Then there is sex, the biological part, the bodies and plumbing we are born with. In the case of this fictitious baby, the sex is ambiguous, it is neither 100% male nor 100% female. The baby is somewhere in between. Finally, there is orientation, that is the third aspect of our sexuality; who we are attracted to. For the majority of the world's population, they are fortunate to enjoy the original "factory" defaults and settings, from when God created us male and female. But then there was the FALL... you remember the Bible story, when Adam and Eve sinned and all of creation was cursed and the system broke? Guess what, so were the perfect molds for human sexuality.
That is the point Jesus is making when he introduces the issue of eunuchs into the conversation regarding marriage. He concedes that life now does not resemble what it started out as. And you know what? He was OK with it. He warned his disciples that not everyone would be able to understand what he was saying. But he didn't mean that as an elitist statement that implied that only a few would be allowed to have that new knowledge. He wanted his disciples to say to themselves, "Hey, I want to be among those who get this." Don't you want to understand what he meant by it? I think you do.
Think about this. What Jesus was discussing was marriage and divorce. His central point was that marriage should not be entered into lightly because it was a covenant for life between two people. Fidelity and commitment were to be its hallmarks. Divorce was not to be granted on a whim or for some triviality. Jesus put a lot of value on marriage because it was God ordained. Now, why did he talk about eunuchs if the issue was marriage? The reason is because he wanted his disciples to understand that eunuchs were also entitled to marry and enter into a lifelong commitment with another person.
This is where it gets interesting. Consider that Jesus did not stipulate what the sex of a person marrying a eunuch had to be. As a matter of fact, he did not go on to set any delineations as to what kind of pairings were acceptable in the sight of God. He didn't say a eunuch can only marry a male, nor did he say a eunuch can only marry a female. If this issue didn't matter to Jesus, then why should it matter to us? Again, the central issue had to do with fidelity and commitment between two persons.
Let's go back to the three layers of our sexuality. Each of those layers needs to be considered independently of the other two. As to gender identity, the majority of the population identifies as either male or female. But there are some who don't identify as either, they are asexual. Then there is the physical, biological sex. Once again, the majority of the population is born either male or female, but there are some who, as we discussed above, are neither. Then there is orientation. The majority of the population is attracted to the opposite gender/sex combination, but some are attracted to both, and some are attracted to their own sex/gender.
Each of these layers is a spectrum, and offer a range of possible outcomes. Superimpose all these three layers with all their possible outcomes and you get one really diverse set of possible combinations. Statistically, the majority of the population will have gender Identities that align with their biological sex and they are attracted to the opposite sex and never question what they are; they have all the original design settings and they are lucky indeed. Then there are those who fall in between or have messed up layer alignments. For gays and lesbians, their gender identity and sex are aligned just as the straight people are. The men are happy to be men and the women are happy to be women. Though they may be happy with their bodies, they happen to be attracted to their own gender/sex. The same can be said about the bisexuals' gender/sex alignment, they are happy with their bodies, but they are attracted to both the male and female gender/sex. Finally, there are also asexual people who are not interested in sex at all.
Then there are those who are transgender. These poor persons really got dealt a bad set of cards. I am one of them, and let me tell you what that means. It means that my gender identity does not align with my biological sex. I identify as a female, but I was born with a male body. There is the first unfortunate issue. Then there is the orientation question. Guess what, I am attracted to females as a transsexual woman (male to female). Other male to female transsexuals are attracted to men. And yet, some are attracted to both males and females. Similarly, transsexual men (female to male) may be attracted to other men, to females or to both.
Here is the question, where does Jesus condemn people for being born with a "messed up" sexuality? Where does he prohibit persons with a "messed up" sexuality from falling in love with another person? Where does he judge those who have a "messed up" sexuality and tell them they are an abomination? If Jesus did not condemn, prohibit or judge, why do you? Why does your pastor? What gives him, you, or anyone the right to speak for God, when Jesus was silent on these issues. That is what you have to answer to God.
Just because you were born with layers that align according to the original set of plans does not mean that you have the right to impose your sexuality on those in the minority who have a different sexuality. It is that simple.
We are commanded to love. I pray you will learn to do that above all else.
ROUND TWO
In this case, all of your rhetoric is a smoke screen. Don't use the narrow interpretation of the Bible you have been fed to defend your arguments. It reduces you.
I don't believe you took the time to consider what I was saying to you because you decided to shoot the messenger and failed to hear the message. Go and read the passage in Matthew, chapter 19 form the point where the Pharisees question Jesus concerning divorce. Then read to the end of verse 12. Don't single out Jesus' reference to the Old Testament "He created them male and female," because the context is all important. You know that as a lawyer, you have to always look at the whole context of a statement and you cannot yank out only those words that prove your point. What kind of law court would allow you to do that? I challenge you to read those verses, pray to God to open your eyes and then re-read what I shared with you. You did not answer any of my questions.
I wasn't just being rhetorical when I asked them. How do you understand Jesus' statement about eunuchs? What would you do with a child born to you as a eunuch? How would you raise the child? What sex would you assign to the child? And a followup question, What gives you the right to assign a sex when the child could be said to be neither? Who would the child be allowed to marry and why? If you say that the child should not marry because marriage is for procreation, then explain childless couples.
As you consider these questions, then also consider the issue of sexuality , not just within the framework of a broken creation, but from the other statement Jesus made about how we will be like the angels in heaven when we die, we will neither be male nor female and we will not marry. Free yourself from the Adam and Eve model and consider the bigger picture Jesus painted. It is all to do with relationship, companionship and fidelity. The reason is that it is a picture of why created in the first place, so that we cold have fellowship with him, to enjoy a relationship and companionship with him. Isn't that beautiful?
ROUND THREE
What if I told you that as I grew up I developed secondary sexual characteristics that were female? If you want it put on a scale, I was about 20% female and 80% male physically. I grew up very confused and feeling inferior because I was not 100% one or the the other. I bought into your damn narrow perspective on sexuality and I used that intolerant and homophobic approach to try to make myself conform and to be "normal." The problem, too, was that I identified more as a female than a male.
One day I realized that Jesus was OK with me identifying as a woman and that it would be okay for me to make the required changes to my body to help me enjoy congruence as a person. I did not choose to be a transsexual anymore than you chose to be black. Are you now going to tell me that I should have stayed as an unhappy man? You don't have that privilege, because even Jesus did not set boundaries anywhere that I can see.
Did you know that the Hebrews had five different words for eunuchs? They understood that sexuality was a spectrum and not simply male or female. They had a word for a female eunuch, another for a male eunuch, another for one that was somewhere in the middle, etc. And nowhere in the Old Testament, since your theology is stuck in the Old Testament, does it stipulate who a eunuch can marry. You are right in saying that eunuchs are different from gays and lesbians, but only on one point, their gender identity and biological sex match up.
But as soon as you allow for a eunuch's orientation to be self expressed or determined (instead of assigned), then, technically, you have to open the door for everybody who may be 100% male or female to also self determine who they are attracted to. Don't you call that equality in the eyes of the law?
My last point is that I don't believe you have even opened up your BIble to read Matthew chapter 19:1-12. You not only owe it to yourself, you owe it to your country because it is a matter of life and death for those you have made yourself to be judge over.
Prossie: Reading this post, i just realised that this is basically a black Vs the self-procliamed superior white men who are descendants of Ethiopia. Now, i ABSOLUTELY HATE HOMOSEXUALITY! Secondly, i absolutely hate the idea of anyone killing a criminal for wateva reason it may be, be it robbery,murder or homosexuality. I, think,(which is my personal view and not subject to change forever and ever) that they need help and therapy to discover that it is ADAM and Eve and not ADAM and STEVE but not to kill them. And if a gay person hit on me, Hell knows what i would have done to him bse my bum is an exit and will never be an entrance for anything!Prossie, you seem like an intelligent young woman, but the Adam and Steve thing, that is getting a bit tired from over-use, it is not even clever.
Set that argument aside and consider what Jesus said in Matthew 19:11-12 concerning those who are born intersex or eunuchs. Your binary notion that humans are only male or female is flawed. Some are born with primary and secondary sexual characteristics that are ambiguous. Some might be more male than female and some may be more female than male.
If you had a baby that was born neither male nor female, what would you do with your baby, kill it or let it die? If you nursed and raised the baby, what gender would you assign this child? Would you raise it as a girl, or would you raise it as a boy? Let's say you raised it as a boy and when he turned twelve years old he came to you and said, mommy, I think I am a girl and I am attracted to boys. Would you call him gay? You see, human sexuality is complex.
There are three layers to consider. The first is gender identity. That is how you identify; let's say that it is the brain part. Then there is sex, the biological part, the bodies and plumbing we are born with. In the case of this fictitious baby, the sex is ambiguous, it is neither 100% male nor 100% female. The baby is somewhere in between. Finally, there is orientation, that is the third aspect of our sexuality; who we are attracted to. For the majority of the world's population, they are fortunate to enjoy the original "factory" defaults and settings, from when God created us male and female. But then there was the FALL... you remember the Bible story, when Adam and Eve sinned and all of creation was cursed and the system broke? Guess what, so were the perfect molds for human sexuality.
That is the point Jesus is making when he introduces the issue of eunuchs into the conversation regarding marriage. He concedes that life now does not resemble what it started out as. And you know what? He was OK with it. He warned his disciples that not everyone would be able to understand what he was saying. But he didn't mean that as an elitist statement that implied that only a few would be allowed to have that new knowledge. He wanted his disciples to say to themselves, "Hey, I want to be among those who get this." Don't you want to understand what he meant by it? I think you do.
Think about this. What Jesus was discussing was marriage and divorce. His central point was that marriage should not be entered into lightly because it was a covenant for life between two people. Fidelity and commitment were to be its hallmarks. Divorce was not to be granted on a whim or for some triviality. Jesus put a lot of value on marriage because it was God ordained. Now, why did he talk about eunuchs if the issue was marriage? The reason is because he wanted his disciples to understand that eunuchs were also entitled to marry and enter into a lifelong commitment with another person.
This is where it gets interesting. Consider that Jesus did not stipulate what the sex of a person marrying a eunuch had to be. As a matter of fact, he did not go on to set any delineations as to what kind of pairings were acceptable in the sight of God. He didn't say a eunuch can only marry a male, nor did he say a eunuch can only marry a female. If this issue didn't matter to Jesus, then why should it matter to us? Again, the central issue had to do with fidelity and commitment between two persons.
Let's go back to the three layers of our sexuality. Each of those layers needs to be considered independently of the other two. As to gender identity, the majority of the population identifies as either male or female. But there are some who don't identify as either, they are asexual. Then there is the physical, biological sex. Once again, the majority of the population is born either male or female, but there are some who, as we discussed above, are neither. Then there is orientation. The majority of the population is attracted to the opposite gender/sex combination, but some are attracted to both, and some are attracted to their own sex/gender.
Each of these layers is a spectrum, and offer a range of possible outcomes. Superimpose all these three layers with all their possible outcomes and you get one really diverse set of possible combinations. Statistically, the majority of the population will have gender Identities that align with their biological sex and they are attracted to the opposite sex and never question what they are; they have all the original design settings and they are lucky indeed. Then there are those who fall in between or have messed up layer alignments. For gays and lesbians, their gender identity and sex are aligned just as the straight people are. The men are happy to be men and the women are happy to be women. Though they may be happy with their bodies, they happen to be attracted to their own gender/sex. The same can be said about the bisexuals' gender/sex alignment, they are happy with their bodies, but they are attracted to both the male and female gender/sex. Finally, there are also asexual people who are not interested in sex at all.
Then there are those who are transgender. These poor persons really got dealt a bad set of cards. I am one of them, and let me tell you what that means. It means that my gender identity does not align with my biological sex. I identify as a female, but I was born with a male body. There is the first unfortunate issue. Then there is the orientation question. Guess what, I am attracted to females as a transsexual woman (male to female). Other male to female transsexuals are attracted to men. And yet, some are attracted to both males and females. Similarly, transsexual men (female to male) may be attracted to other men, to females or to both.
Here is the question, where does Jesus condemn people for being born with a "messed up" sexuality? Where does he prohibit persons with a "messed up" sexuality from falling in love with another person? Where does he judge those who have a "messed up" sexuality and tell them they are an abomination? If Jesus did not condemn, prohibit or judge, why do you? Why does your pastor? What gives him, you, or anyone the right to speak for God, when Jesus was silent on these issues. That is what you have to answer to God.
Just because you were born with layers that align according to the original set of plans does not mean that you have the right to impose your sexuality on those in the minority who have a different sexuality. It is that simple.
We are commanded to love. I pray you will learn to do that above all else.
ROUND TWO
Prossie: Lisa, ur clearly musinterpreting ur Bible or u cs be reading a different Bible from mine. And ur a transgender so really, i hv nothing more to say to u bse wateva i wd say will not make sense to u since u chose to walk that path. Already the whole thing with u pipo is full of confusion as u said! No one is messed up in their sexuality bse thats wat u want evryone to believe for ur convinience. And if u think JESUS didnt condemn sexuality, then u really need to read ur Bible again and if i was to tek u thru that, then i would need an entire day. I hate homosexuality but i didnt say i hate the pipo who practice it. I separate the cat from the individual and by doing so, it allows me not to condemn the person but their act. Wateva u decide to do is ur business but that wont stop me from telling u that it is wrong. However, teh absolute decision lies with u and ur accountable to not only the state u come from (since all authority comes from God) but also to ur creator whom u despised by deciding that ur male wen he created u female and then ur attracted to females(this is just too much confusion already)!Prossie, earlier I said you seemed like an intelligent woman, now that I have read your discussion with Richard, I am left flabbergasted at how you have chosen to close your mind to reason. You are parroting all the cliches that your famous pastors, such as pastor Poo-Poo Sempa, and if you are aspiring to be a lawyer, it behooves you to look behind the words.
In this case, all of your rhetoric is a smoke screen. Don't use the narrow interpretation of the Bible you have been fed to defend your arguments. It reduces you.
I don't believe you took the time to consider what I was saying to you because you decided to shoot the messenger and failed to hear the message. Go and read the passage in Matthew, chapter 19 form the point where the Pharisees question Jesus concerning divorce. Then read to the end of verse 12. Don't single out Jesus' reference to the Old Testament "He created them male and female," because the context is all important. You know that as a lawyer, you have to always look at the whole context of a statement and you cannot yank out only those words that prove your point. What kind of law court would allow you to do that? I challenge you to read those verses, pray to God to open your eyes and then re-read what I shared with you. You did not answer any of my questions.
I wasn't just being rhetorical when I asked them. How do you understand Jesus' statement about eunuchs? What would you do with a child born to you as a eunuch? How would you raise the child? What sex would you assign to the child? And a followup question, What gives you the right to assign a sex when the child could be said to be neither? Who would the child be allowed to marry and why? If you say that the child should not marry because marriage is for procreation, then explain childless couples.
As you consider these questions, then also consider the issue of sexuality , not just within the framework of a broken creation, but from the other statement Jesus made about how we will be like the angels in heaven when we die, we will neither be male nor female and we will not marry. Free yourself from the Adam and Eve model and consider the bigger picture Jesus painted. It is all to do with relationship, companionship and fidelity. The reason is that it is a picture of why created in the first place, so that we cold have fellowship with him, to enjoy a relationship and companionship with him. Isn't that beautiful?
ROUND THREE
Prossie: Lisa, if u had taken tym to read wat i posted, u shd know that i answered ur queries and as for ur comparison with the eunuchs, i cnt answer that bse eunuchs and homos are very different bse u were actually assigned a sex which u decided to ignore so really ur not anywea near those unfortunate pipo!Prossie, There in lies the problem. You have made yourself a judge.
What if I told you that as I grew up I developed secondary sexual characteristics that were female? If you want it put on a scale, I was about 20% female and 80% male physically. I grew up very confused and feeling inferior because I was not 100% one or the the other. I bought into your damn narrow perspective on sexuality and I used that intolerant and homophobic approach to try to make myself conform and to be "normal." The problem, too, was that I identified more as a female than a male.
One day I realized that Jesus was OK with me identifying as a woman and that it would be okay for me to make the required changes to my body to help me enjoy congruence as a person. I did not choose to be a transsexual anymore than you chose to be black. Are you now going to tell me that I should have stayed as an unhappy man? You don't have that privilege, because even Jesus did not set boundaries anywhere that I can see.
Did you know that the Hebrews had five different words for eunuchs? They understood that sexuality was a spectrum and not simply male or female. They had a word for a female eunuch, another for a male eunuch, another for one that was somewhere in the middle, etc. And nowhere in the Old Testament, since your theology is stuck in the Old Testament, does it stipulate who a eunuch can marry. You are right in saying that eunuchs are different from gays and lesbians, but only on one point, their gender identity and biological sex match up.
But as soon as you allow for a eunuch's orientation to be self expressed or determined (instead of assigned), then, technically, you have to open the door for everybody who may be 100% male or female to also self determine who they are attracted to. Don't you call that equality in the eyes of the law?
My last point is that I don't believe you have even opened up your BIble to read Matthew chapter 19:1-12. You not only owe it to yourself, you owe it to your country because it is a matter of life and death for those you have made yourself to be judge over.
